they just hit the lowest level this year. the national average for regular gas falling to $3.24 a gallon, only a few cents shy of the two-year low, and one of the reasons for the decline, stockpiles of gas are near an eight month high. just in the nick of time for the busy travel season, according to aaa, 84 million people expected to drive near the holiday, up one million from last year, and analysts forecast gas prices to fall into 2013 giving families relief in the new year. that's my two cents more. yay, gas prices. thank you for watthing. dvru if you can't catch us live. have a great night, see you tomorrow. ♪ lou: good evening, everybody. president obama and house speaker boehner have been forced out of their respective negotiating positions. president obama relenting on his

pledge for tax hikes on earners above $250,000 a year raising that threshold to $400,000 annually. that, by the way, just happens to be the same amount of money that the president of the united states is paid each year. speaker boehner agreeing to a tax hike on all earnings over a million dollars per year. the back and forth between speaker boehner and president obama has now gone on for 20 days, at least six offers and counteroffers exchanged in public, and at each point when the negotiations appear to be at an impasse, one of them has managed to make concessions that moved the process forward nonetheless. watching the frame work of a deal take shape, no matter how vague, undefined the terms, it's been enough to excite investors3 on wall street. enough today that the dow jones industrial average posted a second straight triple digit

rally and level of trading picking up as well. today, largest total volume in more than a month, mor than 7 billion shares of stock traded today, 4 billion on the new york exchange. today's rally and yesterday's, inspired by confidence that a deal is now within reach. tonight, we'll explore the progress that has been made, and with the help of experts and insiders, we'll try to figure out what a deal, if there is to be one, might look like. by the way, just 13 days to the edge of cliff, and then over. arms services and judiciary committee member, congressman randy forbes joins us on the politics of it all and the impact of sequestering if not ascended. deutsche bank managing districter on the market reaction and economic impacts, and lieutenant colonel dave grossman joining us to talk about the impact of violent images on our youth and whether we should be focusing on the power of mass media, television,

movies, video games, all of that coming up here tonight. for more details on the future of speaker boehner's plan b and whether to expect a plan c to be in the offing, ed henry with the report. >> reporter: speaker john boehner says while he's not cutting negotiations on a major deal with president obama, it's time for a backup plan. our plan b would protect american taxpayers who make a million dollars or less and have all of their current rates extended. >> reporter: if it passes thursday, there's little chance of passage in the senate where democrats say the goalposts keep getting moved. >> they take that football, and it's a charlie brown episode. they jerk the ball away. >> except it was only 15 months ago the president suggested the threshold and tax hikes might be a million dollars. >> middle class families shouldn't pay higher taxes than millionaires and billionaires. >> today, white house officials noted the president's push for

the so-called buffet rule was only a minimum tax for millionaires that did not preclude raising rates as part of broader reform. >> boehner's idea of taxes people is so bad and unbalanced, why did the president propose that in september of 2011? he had the millionaires tax when he came out in the rose garden. >> that was an entirely different proposal. the president always supported expiration of the bush era tax cuts for those making more than $250,000. >> in private talks with boehner, however, the president moved the threshold to $400,000 or more, and republicans today noted two years ago, 53 senate democrats voted for a plan by senator chiewk schumer similar to boehner's. >> i don't know a single one of the colleagues who wouldn't prefer to do tax breaks for people up to a million dollars.

>> boehner has bigger problems as plan b has a second vote thursday on a bill to extend tax cuts for anyone making $250,000 or less. while that could help avoid the it, conservatives are likely tod block it. >> we have to keep them as low as possible and get at least 99% of americans not to have a tax increase. that's our goal. we're going to fight hard. >> meaning with the clock ticking, democrats think the president has boehner boxed in. >> we don't know the details of plan a, plan b, or whatever plan c might be, but we remain united behind our president. >> here's what plan c could look like. a top adviser to the president sees president obama making one more concession saying the threshold on tax increases will be $500,000 or more. mr. boehner may not take that, but if he does, it still leaves a lot on the table, no major

spending cuts in the deal, no major entitlement reforms, and no lifting of the debt ceiling. basically, a lot of people would be unhappy, and basically feel like the lawmakers punted again. lou? lou: thank you, ed henry, fox news chief white house correspondent. well, with all of the public attention focused or not fiscal cliff and on again off again negotiations, the obama administration is issuing massive numbers of of red tape covering everything from environmental regulations to obamacare. watchdog groups say thh new rules are implemented so quickly that opponents are not able to get enough time to wage in -- weigh in on them. shannon has the latest from washington. >> when congress passes a law, it's basically just a frame work; then federal agencies delegated the authority to write regulations and rules that spell out just how the law will be enforced. before they become time, there's a comment period when the

public, employers, companies, anyone impacted can weigh in. back in 1993, president clinton signed an executive order saying agencies should allow a 60 day comment period, but that's not happying with -- happening with four regulations tied to the health care law. one just has 24 days, and final comments due during the holidays. americans for limited government wrote to the department of health and human services asking for an explanation requesting that the comment period be extended. one of the regulations is more than 400 pages long, and regulatory experts say it's nearly impossible for a company to review something of that volume and prepare a formal comment in time. >> because of that, a lot of agencies work in secret. you know, the only people that know about them are large stake holders in industry that have full-time counsel that do nothing other than look at these things, but there's a number of regulations published each and

every day in the federal register that affect your daily life, and it's worth looking at because if you don't pay attention too it, then this is a whole part of the government operating in secret otherwise. >> the department of health and human services tellssus that governors, insurers, and other interested party encouraged the agency to get the rules finalized as soon as possible, and that's what the agency is doing. lou? lou: 4 # # 00 page -- 400 pages of regulations. that's quite a regulation. shannon, fox news correspondent. more on the president's new regulations, the state of the fiscal cliff debate throughout tonight's broadcast. killing is all the rage on video games. tonight, exploring the link between rising gun violence, our children, and the violent consequences of violent video games. the markets take a look at the fiscal cliff and rally in the face of it. the dow posted second day, a triple digit gains.

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lou: the president and speaker boehner continue to, well, negotiate over the details of the potential deal that would avoid the fiscal cliff. wall street showing signs of optimism that a deal is near. deutsche bank chief economist josh fineman joining me, and stocks rally again, the dow racking up triple digit games, 1 # 15 points today. s&p up 16.5. nasdaq up 44. volume 4.3 billion shares on the big board, busiest day since the

beginning of the movant. apple coming back after its recent sharp losses, recent concerns about profit mar begins, and concerns about everything, it seems, to do with that stock, and nonetheless, the stock moved up another 3% today. oracle beating targets up one and three quarters percent as did microsoft channel adviser tracking online sales saying sales to amazon in the first two weeks of the month up 26% and 23% of ebay, stocks reflecting the good news. investors selling off gun makers today. both down sharply as was cabellas carrying a broad line of goods in its vast array of sporting goods. private equity firm says it will sell off its company, the freedom group, which includes rummington outdoor, treasury market today, investors sold bonds, yell on the ten-year,

rising to, 1.87%. wow! back-to-back gains putting the dow up more than # -- 200 points for the week. that's right, it's only tuesday. is this a little excessive enthusiasm? a combination of easy money, the fed, mr. obama, and mr. boehner? well, going -- joining us now, the chief global economist for deutsche bank. thank you for joining us. >> great to be here, lou. lou: quite the beginning to the week. think investors are overly invested in the negotiations in washington? >> maybe a little bit. i mean, there's certainly buying into the idea that a deal is near, and, you know, i think they will reach a deal, but the markets now set up for the possibility that there's -- if there's a glitch in the negotiations, there could be disappointment in the market. lou: what are they pricing? just curious. pricing in minimal taxes, say,

you know, maybe $500 being? are -- $500 billion or cuts, $6 trillion? i don't think so. >> certainly not. lou: what gives investors such excitement they go out and throw money at stocks? >> i think the excitement is just that there's an increasing chaace we're going to avoid going off the cliff, and that would be such a potentially damaging factor for the economy that if we increase the chances we're not going to do that, i think that gets people excited. in terms of tackling the long temple budget problems, no, i don't think anybody is of the view that, hey, we're going to do that in the next few days. lou: nobody's under the illusion that this s for real? that we're talking about substantive budget reform, talking about real, honest to gosh debt reduction? >> i think that the fiscal story is a drama to play out in several acts. act one -- hopefully not a tragedy -- act one -- lou: it's been a farce to this

point. >> well, maybe, but act one is avoid the fiscal cliff, okay? i think that's increasingly looking like that's going to happen. we'll have a brief intermission, come back for act two is is, okay, think about getting the budget on a long term sustainable basis meaning fundamental tax reform and entitlement reform. that's going to be tough to do. lou: let me be a person here and suggest pockets people are not talking about. what if the fundamentals are good now, seeing strong confidence, seeing strong manufacturing news, strong retail, seen strong housing. i mean, there's good things happening in the economy, too. >> there are. there are, absolutely. that's another thing markets are focusing on. okay, there's the fiscal cliff, that's the immediate hurdle. aced void that -- avoid that, then there's signs the head winds holding the economy back are starting to abate, and housing's starting to

turn a little bit and other good news so if we avoid shooting ourselves in the foot with the cliff, maybe the economic outlook brightens a little. lou: tell me what 1.83 on the ten year, what's that reflect? i mean, does it mean ben bernanke's plan is timely working? >> 1.83 is low, up a little bit, better than they were. lou: 30 basis points where where we were. >> that's true. part of that, maybe some of the green shoots in terms of the economic outlook and also, that, hey -- lou: positive indicator on the economy. when investors talk about green shoots, reach for the buy button. >> i don't know, but it's looking better than it has in awhile. lou: josh, thank you for being here, appreciate it. >> thanks. lou: the newtown massacre, spurring calls for gun control. in the "chalk talk" tonight, we look at what may be one of the

largest and important problems in the society, and it's not gun. america's state and mental health and the cost of mental health care in so many dimensions, far more than price. president obama, his desire for new gun control laws, put in the hands of one of his most trusted members of the administration. we're coming right back. [ woman ] ring. ring. progresso.

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lou: the newtown massacre creates a national debate on gun control without question. it's arguably more important to have a national discussion on mental health care. i know nays a very unpopular topic. we still don't know the details, the facts that led up to a 20-year-old man turning into a mass murder last friday. we do know many of the facts about mental health care system that is failing in the country. there are far too many people in

desperate need of health, who, in many cases, with proper care could be protective -- productive in our society, but first we have to look at the truths and the dimension of the problem, and it is vast. just how big is mental illness in america? well, i hope that you are sitting down because these numbers are simply astounding. according to the national institute of mental health department, 20% of this country, 20% of us, at one time or another, that's some 60 million people, 60 million americans experience a mental health disorder in any given year, but of those, some 16 million do receive, 16 # -- 16 million people, do receive

some form of help. despite the often desperate need of care, it's twice as difficult to find a mental health professional to find help than a doctor or dentist, and mental health care is extraordinarily expensive. twentity five years ago, think about this, 25 years ago, we were spending just over $2 billion on mental health medication. it is now more than ten times that amount. $30 billion in pharmaceuticals. nearly 50% of those untreated now blame costs as a barrier to treatment. another barrier? the attitudes and the societal

stigma on mental health. 66% of them say they chose not to have treatment because they believed they thought, they hoped, they prayed their problem would get better on its own, but as we learned to our regret, psychological problems and mental illness often just get worse. high drama in washington, negotiations over the fiscal cliff, the white house with an offer the house with an offer, and the fact is there's no deal. has the speaker given up on a deal with the president? the a-team is next. the thin line between video and reality, talking with a man who knows that line and exploits it to train our military, and he says some brutally violent video games can turn some kids into

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♪ lou: another weapon lancaster operation fast and furious has been recovered. this time, i crime scene of a high-profile murder in mexico last month. cbs news reported an ak-47 rifle found near the body of the samoan between was, in fact, bought by a straw buyer who had been under the atf watch officials say the beauty queen was likely used as a human shield during a shootout between drug cartel members and the mexican military in late november. more than 2,000 weapons were allowed to fall into the hands of drug cartels during the operation. most have never been recovered. the horrible tragedy has people

crying out for answers and how children could be better protected. in congress, tighter gun controls are being pushed as the immediate answer. so far, the national rifle association has remained quiet. but james rose and reports, of the nation's largest advocate for the second amendment is getting ready to speak. >> heartbreaking and challenging days ahead for the small town in connecticut. >> a little watch on-line show is the only venue where the national rifle association has so far sought to counter the massive coordinated campaign for new laws mounted swiftly after newtown by the gun-control lobby >> mayor blumberg, senators chuck schumer and dianne feinstein insisting that we need tougher gun laws. you look at connecticut, and they are number five when it comes to the strictest gun laws in the country. >> sources close to the issue tell fox news the nra, having

observed a proper morning time frame will soon begin to push back against gun-control advocates widening in the discussion to include hollywood, the gaming industry and putting defenders of the first amendment against defenders of the second. the major news conference was announced friday, saying its 4 million members to male and female, are prepared to offer meaningful contributions to make sure this never happens again. the white house, meantime, went on record with the measures president obama will fight for. >> actively supportive of, for example, senator feinstein's stated intent to revive a piece of legislation that would reinstate the assault weapons ban. he supports and would support legislation that addresses the problem of the so-called gun show loophole. but talk about high-capacity ammunition clips, for example, and that is something subtly that we would be interested in looking at. >> the gun-friendly democrat

from west virginia reelected last of spoke by phone with the president today and after were urged his friends not to vilify those to talk to the other side. at the same time democratic senator clear macassar of missouri, one of the top ten states for gun ownership backgrounds checks struck a more confrontational posture. >> everyone walks around here worried about their nra's board. they scored it. they scored whether or not the attorney-general was held in contempt. i have two words? score this. >> senior obama adviser david axelrod blasted out an e-mail to campaign supporters on monday that clinton into a video of the president's eulogy for the victims. two places alongside the box visitors were encouraged to donate money to all one explicitly asking for $5. in washington, james harrison. lou: joining me now, my next guest to says guns are not the

real problem. kids are becoming so desensitized to violence and to death because of violent video games that we are injuring our young people. in some cases previously. the foremost experts on violence and media. lieutenant-colonel david rosen, former psychology professor at west point and author of, killing the psychological cost of learning to kill and war and in society it is good of you to be here, colonel. want to start with the idea that is now being discussed right now. there is some discussion. obviously a reflection which is, take away the guns, the reflexive answer which, it had to be simply a psychological problem, part of one young man. you see it as a much more broad and profound problem than even that. >> the first thing is, this is a

worldwide phenomenon. germany had to mass murders of high-school. england, 30 years after the most rigid gun laws passed, they have their most horrible gun massacre. norway, some of the most strictest gun laws on the planet, and that got on the island and murdered all of their kids. we have to understand something new is happening. the guns have always been there. we're working hard to keep them out of the hands of kids, but there is something profoundly new. if we don't focus on that e completely miss the issue here. lou: what is that new -- that change that is overtaking us, our society that can lead to this kind -- >> a new phenomenon. lou: what is it? >> never there before. violence injury, particularly video games. the number one trade law

enforcement. man-hours, contact our supply system anywhere you want to measure it. one of the leading trainer is a military. i have a best-selling video series were preparing individual citizens to be able to use deadly force at the moment of truth. and from all those perspectives, we know that simulations and visualization and mental rehearsal is absolutely essential to performance on the battlefield. the video games are providing the exact same thing to the children without the safeguards. and then when you add the ingredient of children who have any difficulty, autistic children, mentally ill children, the learning disabled children, the impact is even greater. i work with schools nationwide. i do school safety training across america. it is heartbreaking when the special ed teachers come up to you and talk about how their precious special lead children are so horribly influenced by these violent movies in these

violent video games. worst of all, you have an apparent overwrought, overwhelmed with a disabled or emotionally ill child, and they turned to the video games to escape. the video games are addictive, seductive. they create sleep deprivation. sleep deprivation is a major factor mental illness, depression, and suicide. video games are a major factor in suicides. we see it in military. our military suicides and we begin to realize sleep deprivation is a critical factor in suicides, and video games are a key factor in this deprivation . lou: samuel l. jackson, one of the stars in this movie. i don't know how to say it, the one in which jamie fox said he is to kill white people. by the way, interesting to think what would have been the reaction had a white actor city is to kill black people. to the point, samuel l. jackson disagrees that this is not about

people going to movies or video games that have violence in them. does not have anything to do with it. what would you say? >> when we take an individual who is on the table one way or the other end there are millions and millions of people like that in america today. youth theater and the sickest video games and movies jonesboro middle school, virginia tech, now giving a sell as adults in our movie theaters and schools. the mass murders, the "wall street journal" article, the mass murders are skyrocketing across america and across the planet. this is a worldwide phenomenon. there is only one new factor in the equation, all of the old problems are still there, still important. but the new factor is the death and were fed to our children. the sickest movies and this is video games are very, very sick

indeed. lou: with you think the odds are , colonel, that president obama, members of his party, and congress in particular will then call for an intensive investigation and examination of media and hollywood and their role in treating this kind of environment. >> i think the odds of hollywood doing it -- the odds of this president's doing an intensive study and an intensive investigation of the impact of the of namee in hollywood are slim to none. the tired old -- meaning it's not going to happen. we will see, what is the tired old, the red herring being dragged across the path again. it's all about the guns. it's the mantra. when they refused to point the camera at themselves. lou: they're going to do exactly that and a point the camera at them, continue this discussion,

and we're going to continue what he sure to be a significant national discussion. the tragedy us. thank you. we appreciate you being here. up next, no deal on the fiscal cliff yet. we'll have the latest. talking with congressman randy forbes, i just arrived from the house floor for a vote. a closed-door republican caucus meeting. we will find out if he voted in that caucus meeting. maybe he was not even asked to vote. you will find out. coming up tomorrow,ngresswoman s us, former reagan economic adviser, fortune magazine washington columnist among our guests. please be with us for all that and much more to marks. for tonight, stay with us because we're going to lay of the fiscal cliff proposals off. could anything be more exciting than that? the politics behind them with the "a-team" next.

♪

lou: well, my next guest was in a special closed-door republican conference meeting just held on how of the speaker's plan the approach is working out. joining us, congressman randy forbes, a member of the armed services committee, house judiciary committee and, as i said, has just left the republican conference with speaker of the house. what is the headline to one congressman? >> we are in the fourth quarter, and time is running out to fix this fiscal problem. i think you have to, first of all, look and realize it is three components. what will happen with these tax rates if they go up. could cost as 800,000 jobs. this huge spending problem that is ruining our future in the future of the country and will happen to national defence if sequestration comes in. there are three sides. the president's and the tax rates and all he wants to deal with situations for people under to under thousand which would give him enough money to run the country for about ten days, but

it could cost 800,000 jobs. the speaker has a proposal that would block these rates in on a permanent basis for everybody who is making a million dollars less. he believes we can do it sequentially, which is deal with rates right now and then deal with spending later and then, perhaps, sequestration. the third group, people like me you believe we should not be raising tax rates and that if we don't do it in one time we will lose our leverage and a never really dealing with the big problem which is spending. lou: a terrific kendis of the situation we have before us. let me get to my original question. what is the headline out of the conference? does he have the support of the carcass to continue, press ahead , reduced from a million dollars down to a marginal rate, say, 400,000? something in between? how much in the way of spending cuts are you ready to accept with the speaker asking for your support and your approval.

itsy telling you how it's going and then going to come to you later? >> the speaker generally was asking people in the conference tonight. there were whipping later. i cannot tell you what the outcome of that will beat. iican only tell you that i indicated unless we could do something with spending, something with sequestration to my could not vote for the current proposal. but are not the rest of the caucus will go along with that, we will probably know by tomorrow, and i expect this will come out sometime thursday. lou: knowing, as you do, and no one would know better than you, congressman, the impact of sequestration and that automatic budget cuts that would ensue as a result and much of it, about 55 billion all falling due almost immediately on the defense budget. you still don't want a deal anything remotely near these terms. >> well, if you look, sequestration is not in part of either the president's deal or

what was put on by the speaker, and it will be devastating to our national security, but also to our economy. we could lose as many as one and a half million jobs. i could not accept a proposal like that unless we get assurances we will deal with this issue, the spending problem, and, again, i don't think increasing taxes is the way to deal with those two problems. lou: i have to respect your position and ascii's 3/4. we are looking at a spectacle with 12 days remaining in which sequestration has not been a part of the discussion which will ensue if there is not a deal. the time for a deal is late. we are hearing a discussion over 1,000,000,000,400 -- basically $1 trillion in spending cuts against a trillion dollars in tax hikes. that seems to be the number. 1-to-1 ratio. yet, there is no -- it seems at least to all of us watching

carefully, there seems to be no pathway forward here to get sequestration handled, the fiscal cliff handled that will satisfy the members of your caucus and the white house. >> have to change our focus. one of the things i have said is, if you're trying to get a square peg in a round hole, you're one of two choices. in iraq and take a hammer and drive it through. so far that's with the president has been trying to do or i can take that edges off. i still think we can make of it. lou: i'm not worried about that at all. i figure you will sort that out. what i'm worried about is the national interest and the fact of the matter is, i see of irresponsibility on the part of the white house and, frankly, your caucus and the democrats in the senate. this is no way to run the nation regarded as, by some still in

this world, a superpower. as a matter of fact, it is downright pitiful. >> and, i think everybody -- well, not everybody, but i certainly would agree with you. the key thing we have to remember is this, bad deal in this situation could be worse than no deal at all. the tech have the right deal. lou: thank you. up next, no deal. the markets are strong. excited about what looks like no deal. and the "a-team" will tell us whether this is just political theater. have all the major decisions really been made and this is just, well, choreography?

♪ lou: joining us now, the "a-team," author, columnist, former prosecutor, fox news legal analyst, veteran democratic strategist and pollster. let's start with, first, gun control. the president is making it clear, he is going to advance it, as is senator feinstein and others. your reaction? >> i am not a supporter of gun control because i don't want to disarm people who are law-abiding citizens exercising their second amendment rights. that think that having people who are law-abiding citizens have weapons makes criminals scared. that is why criminals go to these gun-free zones like schools and malls because they know that there won't face real resistance.

lou: governor perry is goldarn teachers and others? >> i used to be a teacher and school, and i have little bit of concern about that. as seen difficult schools and other can be very tense in the classrooms, and i would be concerned about teachers may be that keeping their eye on their weapon all the time. consistencies that the? it could be dangerous circumstance. having an armed guard outside is an option that could work. >> i do not think the answer is harming civilians, people that are not used o operating against. i disagree with you in the sense that in connecticut that this assault rifle is absolutely illegal under connecticut law. to end their own needs an assault rifle with a magazine of 30? >> we need -- we need tech to rights. the ak-47 does not get taken out to go kill bambi. we need stronger laws.

we need to get this bill enacted as vocal as possible so that we can have a way stop this. that does not take guns away from people who want them, but -- lou: i hear this and i understand the reflex. we have seen it time and time again tragically, but what i don't understand, and we went through in the "chalk talk" tonight, numbers of people in this country require mental-health treatment. the numbers of people who are not getting the treatment. the numbers of people, and we do not have the facts and details, i'm only going to reference what happened. indeed count connecticut. the fact is, this was a young man deeply, deeply mentally disturbed. we understand, at least from the one source near the family, that she wassabout -- his mother was about to have him committed for psychiatric help. the process took too long. it took her to long, and the result is terrific.

when we come back, i want to talk about that and the fact that no amount of gun legislation will solve the pain and the suffering and the failure to treat so many of our fellow citizens. we're coming right back with the "a-team." stay with us. ♪ ♪ [ engine revs ] ♪ ♪

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lou: back with the a-team, gun control, mental illness, what we can do about it. >> you were just talking about how the mother was trying to get him committed, and then courts get involved because to try -- lou: waiting for a hearing. >> waiting for a hearing. to get an involuntary commitment on a 20-year-old man is difficult. it's taking a lot of time. it should not be that way. when the signs are so clear as they were in this case, then action needs to be taken right away, and i don't understand why that doesn't -- didn't happen, but i tell you the lawyers in the courts accept that. >> it didn't happen in this case with respect to medications and things of that sort, but i think

we have to re-examine medications on potential side effects. those involved in the mas shootings on are antidepressants or other medications. i've been in schools with kids on medication because of add, anxiety, or depression. violent outbursts, totally different people. parental involvement is important. >> we have 60 million people in the country, 20% with mental health issues, if medication can't help -- >> it's all well and good, but the trick is keeping guns out of their hands. >> the law did keep guns out of his hands. he trieded to get a gun, and he was not able to get it. he stole someone else's weapon. if you look at the actual law in place, so the problem is that you can't disarm law abiding citizens in an effort to tend to the people who will steal, who go by illegal means to get weapons. there has to be a balance in the

system. lou: the politics of this, it's sort of an easy reflection as many are doing. >> sure. lou: gun control. it's not an easy reflux to say how we provide treatment for the meantly ill, talking about the issue amongst ourselves because as the colonel said, we've had give ups in the country before its foundings, since its discovery, and the fact is we've never had this activity before. it's a societal and psychological problem. we've got to acknowledge that. >> understood gun control, took the guns away from people who had them, hoisted them, they couldn't kill people. that's gun control. lou: it's gun control -- >> it's the second amendment. >> we have gun control already. lou: going n